HMP Governance Lab: Introduction to Health Policy
HMP Governance Lab: Introduction to Health Policy
1.2 Getting to know Profs Jarman and Greer
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Who are these people?! Scott surprised Holly with a few questions about her work, so she interviewed him right back. Get to know us a little more before the semester starts!
- PH 384 Canvas site
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- Find work from the HMP Governance Lab at www.hmpgovernancelab.org and on Twitter @HMPgovlab
- Music: 'Blippy Trance' by Kevin MacLeod
Welcome to the HMP Governance Lab podcast, where today we're gonna answer a couple of burning questions. The first one being - who is Holly Jarman, and why are you listening to her so much?
Holly Jarman :Oh, my goodness, I had no idea that this was going to be an interrogation Scott.
Scott Greer :It's just a friendly little get to know you. Basically, what I thought we could do is talk through, just ask a few questions about who you are and why you're here. And then you do the same to me. And that way the students can get a sense of who we are and why we're here before we begin the semester on the other side of zoom screen from you.
Holly Jarman :Okay, so just the fundamentals, just the existential, big ones about who am I and why am I here?
Scott Greer :We can start with your accent. Where are you from?
Holly Jarman :Oh, yes. So I get questions about this quite a lot. I'm originally from the UK, I was born in London, I'm a Londoner. And so my accent, hopefully is still pretty English. I'm hoping that it stays that way. I have some friends who've been living in America for about 25 years now. And very slowly, their accents have kind of evolved into a strange transatlantic brogue, which is not as nice, I think as either an American accent or a British accent. So hopefully, I won't have that happen to me. We'll have to see.
Scott Greer :And now you're an assistant professor of health management and policy at the University of Michigan. So how did you get from London to UM, to Ann Arbor?
Holly Jarman :Oh, gosh, how long have we got to talk about this? So I actually did my PhD in political science at the London School of Economics and Political Science. And so that was a real learning curve for me. I am a first generation college student. So I didn't really know anybody who had done a PhD. I had no idea what I was doing. But I had been involved in policy. So I'd worked as a researcher. We call them researchers, it's sort of a staffer would be the American word - for a member of the House of Parliament. So I worked for an MP. And I'd also worked in the UK Department of Health doing some various odd jobs there. And so I was really interested in engaged in health policy even then, and also economic policy, which is really what my my PhD was in. So I did that for a while. And then I graduated in 2009. And I got a job at the State University of New York, which was a really great, friendly place. And so I lived in Albany for about four years before finding a job here at the University of Michigan, and I've been here since 2012. First in a research position and then in a tenure track position, which is like a more permanent Professor job. And I'm still here. They haven't kicked me out yet.
Scott Greer :And one of the reasons we know they won't kick you out is he do a lot of scholarship on a lot of interesting and important topics. Do you want to talk about a couple of your favorite past or future present themes?
Holly Jarman :Oh my gosh. So, yeah, I do a lot of work on health regulation, health policy topics, but particularly a lot of my work is engaged with what happens after a legislature says yes to a policy. So we pass a policy into law. And then quite often, I think people forget about it. We don't talk about it in the press. We don't talk about it in public conversations. And so I'm very interested in how that policy actually gets implemented. And to my mind, that's where quite a lot of things can really go wrong. And so, a lot of the work I do is on various topics along those lines. So I have, for example, a long standing project in tobacco control, I've been looking at tobacco 21 policies. And so what happens once that policy is put into law? How do you actually put that into practice in local communities and in cities and counties? And how does that work? And can you afford to do it? And what does the enforcement look like, which is really the topic of the day. But you know, do you try to enforce this using civil means, using fines and warnings, or do you bring the police into it? And so that is a project I've been doing for a couple of years. I'm also working on a COVID related project right now, where we are doing something quite different actually, we're comparing the COVID responses of a number of countries in Europe and trying to figure out what are some of the defining factors of a significantly successful response, let's say. So that, again is very much in the nitty gritty of policy and how does it get put into practice, especially like how a government's able or not to be flexible in a time like this and actually rise to the occasion. So that's being... something we're doing with a big team of folks, both in Europe and in America. And it's really nice. I like a lot of interdisciplinary work when working with people with different training from myself. And so I find that quite fun.
Scott Greer :You didn't say a word about the European Union or Oaxacan coffee.
Unknown Speaker :Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I have an eclectic research portfolio, let's say. So some of my work is quite law based. So I look at European Union law as it pertains to trade and health. So I have a big research agenda, thinking about how markets and the marketplace rub up against health concerns. And so - Do you really see a situation where Economic Regulation pushes out health policies that we would want to see put in place? And so I study the European Union in that context. So that's quite a legal set of research. Also have a... do a bit of that research around the WTO, the World Trade Organization to and a lot of that stems from my dissertation research, which is about trade and markets and Economic Regulation, and how that doesn't necessarily get along well, with the health goals that we want to see put into place.
Scott Greer :I can see how this is so exciting that you're glued to your desk. But I've got to ask you come from London, one of the world's biggest and most exciting cities. How's that Arbor? What do you do there?
Holly Jarman :Um, man, so I do miss London. I am definitely at home in a big city. I like the bustle of the place. But it's also pretty stressful to live in a big city, frankly. I've been at this point in probably at least, I think it's at least 30 states by now across the US on various trips. And I've seen a lot of college towns too I can tell you Ann Arbor is a pretty good college town in terms of just the infrastructure that it has. And so I'm... I struggle a bit with some of the things like I am not much of a big coffee drinker - I only drink a little coffee, but I'm much more at home drinking tea. That's very stereotypical, I know for an English person, but I'm hoping that over time, I have become more accustomed to drinking what Americans think is a cup of tea, which is a huge bucket of hot water, very lightly flavored by a tea bag. So that's a little different. I like being part of a big institution, the University of Michigan is just huge and even at the state University of New York, we were not as large as the Michigan campus. And so that took a good bit of getting used to the idea that the university could be just as big as the town if not bigger. And so I think I've adjusted to that over time. But it did take a... it was a learning curve for me. Yeah.
Scott Greer :What do you do to enjoy Ann Arbor? What do you do when you're not doing scholarship?
Holly Jarman :I have been playing Pokemon Go with my four year old, who is very excited about the idea that any animal that she sees could secretly be a Pokemon. So we went, we've been going out to parks a lot over the summer and doing little nature walks and things. And so I spend a lot of my time hanging out doing family things. And I love movies. So I am really happy that we've got a couple of fantastic movie theaters. They're quite beautiful. You really should go and see our restored movie theaters and They have some special sing along movies, which I'm quite fond of - sing along-a sound of music I went to, and I'm actually part of a big choir, a women's chorus in Ypsilanti. So we hang out when we were hanging out before COVID quite a lot. These days, we hang out a lot on zoom and we kind of do coaching together. But we obviously can't sing in person because that's one of the things that actually circulates the virus quite quickly. So while we can't do that in person right now, I do really appreciate my chorus friends, my non academic friends, I think that that is a great way to get... it's an antidote to the university in some ways. Much as I love the university. I don't want to be talking academics all of the time.
Scott Greer :And finally, how do you cook rice?
Holly Jarman :How do I cook rice, I have a fancy Japanese rice cooker, which I am very, very fond of. And it plays little tunes when the rice is done, which is always cheerful. And so I would never go back to boiling rice in a pan. Definitely my parents if they ate rice, which they did not very much, would boil the heck out of it in a pan. And I much prefer the lovely steaming job that my rice cooker does. And so I do eat rice a lot. I also put rice in risotto, which I cook more sort of the traditionally Italian way, only, I'm sure much worse than any real Italian would ever do. But I do like to make risotto and it's a real treat. So that's how I cook rice.
Scott Greer :Brilliant. Got any questions for me?
Holly Jarman :Oh, baby, do I have questions for you? So, okay, now I get to turn the tables on you a little bit. Now. You've been at the University of Michigan For how long, Scott, exactly?
Scott Greer :Since 2005, September.
Holly Jarman :Oh my goodness. So how has Ann Arbor changed since 2005, then?
Scott Greer :In a way, it's like a lot of America, a successful bit of America, it's grown, it's become nicer, it's become denser, it's become less egalitarian, we've got a bigger housing crisis at the same time that we have high rise buildings full of posh student dorms. So it's a much more pleasant place to live if you've got money. But it's an increasingly tricky place to live, if you don't, which is one of the reasons, then, at least before COVID, increasingly, the interesting little small businesses were more and more to be found in Ypsilanti town.
Holly Jarman :So one of the things I think is so interesting about Scott is - Did you see what he did there when he just put in the bad things and the good things right next to each other? So sometimes he has this flat affect way of speaking. I'm sure all of you students will get to know this sooner rather than later, where he just tells you the good thing and he just keeps on going in the same tone of voice and then there's also the bad things. And so one of the things I think we both share actually, as social scientists, is we... we try to understand the world using social science. And so that has, we have that habit of trying to show the good and the bad and everything and analyzing the situation, don't you think?
Scott Greer :Yeah. And part of it is that I in particular, I'm trained as a comparativist. So comparativists, as a program of political science, compare countries. And we look at ways in which for example, the United States race relations crisis might be illuminated by comparing us to Brazil, or South Africa, or the ways in which the failings of the United States healthcare system can be remedied if we learn from Western Europe. So a lot of the time what I'm specifically trying to do is get out of the endless fascination of American history and society and think about ways in which comparing us to other countries would teach us something useful.
Holly Jarman :Right? I think that's a really powerful thing to do to compare, like, we shouldn't forget the historical experiences of other places. And I really hate it when people suggest that America is somehow exceptional and not comparable to other places. I find that kind of offensive actually. So let's back up a minute, though, because you're a political scientist, too. So where did you start out? Where did you get your degree? And then what was your path to Michigan?
Scott Greer :I've always been interested in health. And a very long time ago, when I'm sure many of the people listening to me were doing something else - that is 1996. I went to Northwestern University just north of Chicago to do my political science PhD focused on European politics. And the gravitational pull of health just sucked me back in every time I tried to go do something different. So I have wrote my first book, my PhD on politics of secessionism, in Scotland in Catalonia. Don't ever let me study you. By the way, the minute I start to study your country, you erode inexorably on the road to a disaster.
Holly Jarman :Did you start studying the United States recently? Because I feel like things have got worse.
Scott Greer :Yeah, about 2010.
Holly Jarman :...basically, yeah, there you go.
Scott Greer :Just don't let me study you. I've never studied South Korea and look how they're doing. So anyway, I found that looking at health was a really good way to understand the broader politics of why people in Scotland and Catalonia were motivated to secede or not. So then, I found a job in London at University College London, studying the different health systems of Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales. And I had a lot of fun, zipping around the UK interviewing people. And one of the things is that the UK is a really beautiful country. But health services tend to be where the people are, not where the gorgeous craggy mountain tops and green fields are. So I visited a lot of areas in the United Kingdom that no tourist goes to and had a lot of fun doing it talking to the interesting people who make Health Services and Public Health work. So I was settling down to live in London, doing a lot of London exploring, walking all over the city, enjoying the theater, enjoying the music. But if the University of Michigan calls and says they're interested in your application that you threw in, you go, and I was blown away the professionalism of the university, the sense in which things just basically worked, the sense in which the place was built around getting things actively done. I was hooked. So after never having dreamed of leaving London, I found myself in Ann Arbor, I joked that I've been exponentially increasing the size of the city I lived in that Chicago is twice the size of Milwaukee, London is twice the size of Chicago and so logically, the next step was going to be a city twice the size of London, which probably meant Karachi. And instead, I found myself In a city whose total population is less than the number of people who use the average London Railway Station.
Holly Jarman :So let me ask that question to you, Scott. How... you asked me, but how do you experience Ann Arbor? What kinds of things do you like to do locally?
Scott Greer :Well, realistically, the things I did in London are mostly available in Ann Arbor. I can drink gallons of coffee, I can ride a bicycle. The exploring I do on the bicycle is more along the lines of Metro parks, which I recommend, than discovering entirely new areas of the city of acto canal towpath, but if you like cycling, if you like, scholarship if you've like coffee, and if you like not having that big city stress and time suck, Ann Arbor's great. And realistically What did I do in London, I ate I consumed art, I consumed books, I consumed coffee, and Ann Arbor's good for all of that.
Holly Jarman :I feel that you have this sort of monastic existence. So if there's ever something that Scott really loves, it's Books and so you should see his bookshelves actually just cover most of the house. So what some of you won't know is that actually Scott and I share a household. So our basement is stuffed with Scott's books. And prior to actually having a whole house to ourselves, we previously lived in a one bedroom flat. And at that point, our combined library was pretty much encroaching on all of our other living space. So one of the reasons that we actually moved out of our flat and into a real house is to have more space for books. So you can tell that Scott kind of has a monastic life, he gets coffee, he rides his bicycle as just sort of a meditative act. And he reads a lot of books. So it can be really great to have conversations with you Scott because you've always got an interesting anecdote, taken from different times in history and different places around the world. But, what kinds of things do you do at the moment for your research?
Scott Greer :For my research? So I thought I knew what my research was in early March of 2020. COVID has substantially derailed that because I'm one of the few people who had been doing research on the comparative politics of communicable disease control. I first started working on the topic in 2003. I published work on it in 2012. And after that, and I had to work very hard to persuade anybody that this was interesting, because everybody knew what worked fine. And the variation wasn't that... wasn't worth following. I don't think anybody holds that opinion now. I don't think anybody thinks it works fine globally. And I think a lot of people have noticed that there's a very big difference. Because if I were to cross the Canadian border, which I can't, I'd be radically safer than I am in the United States. So COVID-19 I'm working on a variety of projects including looking at what it tells us about federalism and presidentialism, about national strategies and which ones are most effective, about the considerable transformation in the European Union, and a long line of work with a lot of people around UM, and who have now often moved, graduated and moved to other universities with their PhDs on the politics of disasters and public health emergencies in the US, so I can talk about the politics and the partisan debates around Ebola, Zika, Katrina, and of course COVID-19.
Holly Jarman :Wow, so you really took that using social science as a coping method metaphor and therapy to a real extreme by studying a whole host of natural disasters on top of the disturbing things that you were already studying. So I'm wondering, you've been in this university for some time so to wrap up, I wonder if we can have a brief discussion of What recommendations would you make to students listening to this about their futures -about navigating the university, navigating their careers? What advice do you have for them?
Scott Greer :I think there's a couple of key things that make Michigan stand out. And these are variants on the things that everybody says make Michigan standout. One of them is, of course, it's big and there's a lot of ways to be big -one is just be an archipelago of disconnected units that have nothing in common. And that's the second thing that I really like about this place is the extent to which you can go engage with other units, other schools of the university. You can even breach the divide between North and South Campus. Although if you do that on a bicycle, you'll remember it. And there's a lot less of the condescension and insularity and tribalism than you find in a lot of other universities. So going and exploring other units, other schools, other professors and other ways that people think about the questions that we deal with is something that I really recommend. And you can do that here in a way that you can get a lot of really fine universities that have a much more insular kind of mindset.
Unknown Speaker :I've really enjoyed this last semester, I've been a public engagement fellow. So the university has a small number of Public Engagement fellows who are working on projects with the wider community. And so part of that program has been interacting with people from all different parts of the university. So we've got really hard scientists and physicists, biologists, I've got people who do business, I got people who do gardening actually, some of the botany and take care of some of the gardens that are within the university, history, art, and so on and so forth. And so that's been really great and the quality of faculty members in that group and staff members also has been really nice. And that's part of what I want at the university is that intellectual interaction, like, I just want to learn interesting things most of the time. My advice to students would be a couple of things. Yeah, I think the university can be a big place, which is an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage in that, if you need a resource, that resource is probably there. But it's a disadvantage in the context of finding that resource can be hard sometimes. So I would say like, for your coursework, rely heavily on the library system, rely heavily on our information lists. There is such a good resource. Every time I cannot find something I will go to Judy, Judy Smith, who is our information works with HMP, and we I ask her 'help, Judy, can you please help me find this resource? Can you help me find this data? Can you help me look at this literature?' And she's incredibly helpful with things like that. That's something I never had at my previous University. And so I'm quite grateful for it. I would say too, like, take time for yourself, especially in the first semester of your program, like, spend a little time think about, okay, I want to do maybe one or two extra curricular things, but not too many. You have to take time to absorb all the things you're learning because even with a two year program, I think things can go by pretty quickly. And you need to let yourself absorb some of the things that are being taught to you. And then you can make up your own mind about the content you're being taught and your criticisms of that content and your synthesis of that content. And I think that's really nice. I would say when I see students come back from their internship in the second year, there's quite often really a transformation in how they -even with older students who have had work experience before- a transformation in how they carry themselves and their professionalism and their knowledge and confidence. And that's a really nice thing to see. It's something I enjoy seeing every year. So I'm looking forward to interacting with all of you over the year. And, and my door's open. I have office hours every two weeks. So if any of this advice was even slightly useful, or you want different advice, or you have specific questions about anything I do, just send me an email and you can come along to my Open Office Hours, virtually, of course, for the time being, but hopefully one day in person.
Scott Greer :And I want to underline that, that it's 2020. There's a lot of stuff going on, and it's really important to be reflective. You have to be thoughtful about how you organize your life. Because not one of us can individually save the world by putting in an extra few hours a day, but you can certainly mess yourself up. So pay attention to yourself and how you're doing, and how you relieve stress and what the limits that you place on the different elements of your life can be.
Holly Jarman :Yeah, put your mask on first and then help others. And I think I'm trying to do that right now by spending more time with my daughter and spending more time with my singing friends. Just as an antidote to what I'm dealing with day to day, but I'm hoping to do some volunteering probably around the election and counting ballots and that kind of thing. And try to stand up in a way that won't destabilize me but will help other people. That's that's my goal.
Scott Greer :A good goal.
Holly Jarman :All right. I hope this was at least slightly interesting and you got to know us a bit better. Normally, we Have a lot of these conversations one on one. But like we said, feel free to email us and we can have some virtual hangouts hopefully during the year. Welcome to Michigan. Welcome to HMP. And I hope that this is the start of a nice fruitful and fun relationship where everybody -both us and you- learn a lot. This has been a podcast of the University of Michigan's health management and policy governance. If you're interested in our research, you can find more podcasts and blog posts over at our website, www. hmpgovernancelab.org. And you can follow us on Twitter @HMPgovlab.